Well said.

Yeah, yeah, but the real question is did you get tenure for all this non-tantrum throwing?

Drezner:

Politics, economics, globalization, academia, pop culture... all from an untenured perspective

Stoller:

There are just infants who don't throw tantrums and get tenure because of it. I speak, of course, of Daniel Drezner...

Me:

You think the guy could at least get the small things right. (Or even moderately right?)

I will post a reply soon. Thank you for your attention and spirited response.

Oh, and I expect you to get tenure soon (apparently you're a hot commodity on the academic market, so I assumed it was a done deal).

He just dislikes you, that's my take on it.

I think the underlying issue is the unwillingness of war-supporters (or former war-supporters) to say, "Yeah, I f*cked up that call." In the case of the Insta-types, it devolves into relentlessly upbeat coverage of Iraq and complaints about the stab-in-the-back. But, as time goes on, I think these guys come off increasingly as partisan hacks or ... I'm hesitant to use the word loon, but it seems appopriate (though I am by no means an expert in anything beyond putting on my own shoes).

I certainly find it more troubling when moderate Republicans of good faith are unwilling to admit a mistake. Because it means it could all happen again - all we really need is better management in charge. After 18 mos. of being told that I hate America, am hopelessly naive, and actively support the rape, torture, and murder of all Iraqis (by people who chose to rely on the foreign policy acumen of this Bush's team, rather than that of the older, smarter, better Bush's team, mind you), a repeat is a bit much to face given the current news out of Iraq.

It doesn't even matter whether the motives of the purveyors of the "wrong management theory" are being honest in their assesment of the situation or are simply devising a theory that allows them not to be wrong (and therefore minimizes any injury to their credibility on these matters). Because these people are reasonable, the theory is taken seriously. So even after the object lesson of Iraq, we still haven't settled whether its OK to invade another country on the basis of ... reasons I still can't fathom.

None of which is to say I think that Stoller is right (I'm too depressed by the possiblity of "doing it right next time" to care); but I can understand, though not approve of, the spleen.

SomeCallMeTim has it right. The fallback position of the true believer in a failed policy is always "it didn't work because it hasn't been tried." As I look back at Dan's recent Iraq posts (helpfully linked in his riposte), I see lots of implementation critiques, but nothing that comes close to admitting that the original rationale or the nation's CEO during this period were just plain, flat-out wrong.

I watched the Watergate hearings in 1973 with a near broken heart, as Senators I respected like Howard Baker and Fred Thompson, thru a fairly obvious distaste for the job, defended Nixon on narrow legalistic grounds to the utmost of their abilities.

Maybe it didn't matter. The Party has done ok. Call em as you see em, Prof.

Nothing that comes close to admitting that the original rationale or the nation's CEO during this period were just plain, flat-out wrong.

I think to "admit" something like that, you have to actually believe it in the first place.

IMHO, given the facts that were in evidence as of 1/2003, and even given the least favorable (to U.S. policy) interpretation of every element of speculation (things on the order of "Saddam had no WMD whatsoever and his evasions were nothing but an elaborate shell game conducted to save face in the Arab world" and "Saddam never under any circumstances would have done anything nice with anyone from a terrorist group ever until the day he died"), I still think the war was the right decision, even if many of the aspects of its management have been clear screw-ups from GWB and Donald Rumsfeld on down. I have zero faith that another year+ of sham negotiations, Ba'athist propoganda, shuttle diplomacy by George Galloway, and agitation by the Franco-Russian alliance to relax sanctions for their own economic benefit would have left the world any closer to a Saddam-free Iraq. Needless to say, I don't speak for Dan, and your mileage may, of course, vary.

Here's a thought experiment:

Imagine there is a administration that comes into power, that, over time, in both its foreign policy, and in it's economic policy, have a clear pattern of being dishonest and lying through their teeth:

1. They lie about the reasons for a war, convincing the general public and reasons that turn out not to be true.
2. For wildly different economic situations, they, again and again, trot out the VERY SAME economic solution - that just happens to benefit the people they are associated with.
3. They close up any possible transparency in their administration - blocking at every turn, at every point, any openness in government.
4. They label the opposition, in every case, wrong, stupid, if not simply treasonous.
5. Their economic projections that allow them to push their tax program, are utterly based in deceit.
6. They lie about the effects of a new medical program - again, to push it through Congress to enactment.
7. On their watch, a movement towards torture (or torture-lite) almost becomes (or possibly becomes) part of the new legal structure - something that no one in their right mind though possible, years ago.
8. In the war gotten into because of lies, these people absolutely ignore the "post-war" period, making the already risky chance of success, much lower?

Given the truth of the above, do you simply "tut-tut", these people in power, because you believe in the system, believe that it will work itself out, believe that you can fair-mindedly "discuss" these things with these people - or do you simply shout out, "you Go***mn liars will STOP this NOW!!! You are killing the very framework of our democracy, you are poisoning the very bedrock of our social institutions! Go away, you incompetent, scummy liars!""

IF the situation above is accurate, the only true thing to do is to react strongly. The "untrue" thing to do, as is reference by P'Oneill, is simply to criticize the implementation of the lies.

Most democrats (and a growing percentage of the american population) believe our current administration IS the administration I describe above. And there are a lot of facts to back this up. Because of that, the brave, patriotic, right, moral thing to do IF THE ABOVE SCENARIO IS TRUE is to scream as loudly as you can.

So, remember when you are talking to democrats, they believe they are doing the right thing, because they believe the scenario above. If you wish to change minds, you have to demonstrate that the above scenario is NOT true, and marshall facts in that defense.

Hey JC, you leave the Johnson administration out of this.

Ha!

Thanks for the laugh, Mitch - appreciated.

Best,

JC

This debate still revolves around the 'reasons for war'. We are reminded that those that opposed the Iraq war were supporters of the Afghanistan war. But why would they support a war in Afghanistan that likely could have been conducted easily without removing the Taliban or massive troop deployment? The goal was to get Al Qaida and to get Bin Laden. They were responsible for 9/11[right?] so they are the primary targets.

A policy in Afghanistan could have been easy and brisk with the Pakistanis on board for a swoop and loop attack. Hit the prime targets and clean up afterwards with Special Forces. This route was possible, could have been employed, but ultimately didn't fit with what clearly was a NEW foreign policy requirement in the Middle East and Central Asia. Ignored states, with little diplomatic relations, where militants and terrorist operations either run free or remain under the watchful eye of a receptive government is in no interest to the security of the United States or its allies. Invasion, removal and rebuilding was the necessary policy in Afghanistan.

The objections to Iraq are well known. "Iraq is Secular, not islamist", "Saddam is contained", "Saddam is no threat to the United States" are just a short list of the reasons cited not to go to war. But they all fail to meet the new standards that the United States had to apply in regions where relations are uniquely objectionable to standard United States values in addition to a wealth of strategic resources that have served as the means to finance the ways of Islamist Salafist ideology not to mention an oppresive dominance of the global Islamic rite.

I think our problem here is that each side, as I really only consider that Iraqi policy had two options, are living in a cocoon where the opposing view is spun as either a 'warmonger' or 'Saddam's best friend'. As P. O'neill said and JC later affirms, supporting this President or his policies leaves you in a position that "were just plain, flat-out wrong". I like to think I'm right, but in the case of Iraq the supporters, among which I was not initially, have been closer to right than they have been to wrong. When that can be honestly acknowledged the debate will bear fruit, but presently their is dishonesty and vitriol that is rotten.

The most obvious example of Soros’ inconsistencies... “We need detective work, good intelligence, and cooperation from the public, not military action.” A scant 16 pages later, however, he allows that, “The invasion of Afghanistan was justified by its role as the home base of Al Qaeda.”

This is an inconsistency? Really? Since I haven't read his book, I don't know if he presents the police/military choice as an absolute and exclusive one, but I don't understand why it should be. Invading Afghanistan seemed like a good idea to me precisely because the government there was making it impossible for "detective work, good intelligence, and cooperation from the public" to take place. If supporting the action in Afghanistan while thinking that counteracting terrorism is usually best accomplished through non-military means is inconsistent, then lots of people share that inconsistency with Soros, including me. I had no idea I was such a loon.

Soros makes the jaw-dropping claim that compared to nation-building in Iraq, “conditions were much more favorable in Afghanistan.”
Perhaps your jaw hinge needs tightening? Again, I haven't read the book so I have no idea what case, if any, he makes. But this doesn't sound like an outrageous comment, even if it's wrong. The lives of regular people in Afghanistan, for instance, are arguably less negatively affected by an American military presence there - if there's no infrastructure to blow up, for instance, people won't miss it as much when it's gone. Do the extra primary languages and ethnicities in Afghanistan lead to a situation as sticky as the Sunni/Shiite/Kurd divide in Iraq? I would imagine that the factors that make Iraq a difficult nation-building project are related to the factors that have allowed an organized resistance to develop. Again, even if his assertion is wrong it doesn't sound indefensible and what you've offered here isn't a strong case for either his lunacy or unseriousness. Why can't Soros just be someone you think is wrong, instead of crazy?

Yep, it's true -- I was clearly defending "the anti-semitic attacks on George Soros" when I said in the post Matt linked to that that I though Tony Blankley excelled at "saying unbelievably stupid things," or when I said "Blankley is clearly an ass. As a Jew, I find that last bolded sentence repugnant" or when I approvingly linked to Eugene Volokh's post on why Blankley's statement was anti-Semitic.

No, you were inoculating yourself against charges of anti-semitism when you wrote those things. You were defending the anti-semitic attacks on George Soros when you linked to Bainbridge's post that equates criticism of Israeli policy with anti-semitism, and equates the words "contribute" and "cause." Such "I would NEVER say something so intemperate as those fringe people, but they have a point" inoculations are an important part of the Mediocre Moderate style.

JC,

Very well said.

While I basically agree with you that all eight of your points apply to the Bush administration, I think number 7 is the most serious charge. That one alone ought to make people stop and ask themselves whether they can continue supporting anything that this administration does.

Bush proclaimed after 9/11 "You are either with us or against us in the fight against terror". In the context of 9/11 this made some sense, especially if it had been directed first and foremost against such "allies" of us as Saudi Arabia.

But it has become a rallying cry of the neo-cons and the far right. They dropped the "in the fight against terror" bit and made it apply to everything. They ignored the possibly intended and perhaps sensible focus on Saudi Arabia completely and instead applied it to some of our allies in Europe. And then they started applying it within the US. Don't question our policies, or you are a traitor!

I generally find all kinds of Hitler comparisons stupid and misplaced. That goes for Stoller's comparison, too. (But, Dan, I'm not sure exactly why your first reaction to it was that Stoller was an "anti-Semitic schmuck".)

However, this administration is starting to adopt measures more commonly seen in totalitarian countries than in democracies - delcaring laws irrelevant, justifying torture, disenfranchising voters. The latter is done at the state level, of course, but it's done in a state that is governed by the brother of the President (Mark Kleiman links to the latest article: http://tampatrib.com/MGB7TQUZ5VD.html).

So when will "you are either with us or against us" turn into "you are either with us or you can't vote"? Or has it already, secretly?

Alarmist? Sure. But when it's not alarmist anymore, then it may be too late. And I don't really see the outraged comments I might have naively expected to see about the torture memo and related news from Iraq from intelligent and otherwise sensible people who have been supporting Bush and the neo-con agenda. So when will you be outraged? Ever? Or would even "you are either with us or you can't vote" be quite ok since it doesn't affect _you_?

cerebrocrat: I was just about to write something very similar, but now I don't have to anymore. :-)

Dan, those two paragraphs out of your book review are very unconvincing and employ poor logic.

And as long as I'm visiting,

(a truly bold position)

honestly, what's THAT about?

gw: glad to oblige.

I'm not sure exactly why your first reaction to it was that Stoller was an "anti-Semitic schmuck"

Because if you mentione Hitler or Nazis, you're an anti-semite. It's true that gratuitous comparisons to Hitler, Nazis, fascism, etc, are dumb and destructive to debate, but it would be a shame if Hitler's memory is at last so profane as to deny us its last decent use as a model of how civilised societies can go awry. Without models we're left to learn from first-hand experience.

Hey JC: We don't have to prove the charges you bring are NOT true, you and others still haven't proven the accusations have any merit! Gather up your forces and take your best shot.

gw: In 2000 I was an disenfranchised voter. I was one of the many victims of the "Moter Voter" program that was pushed by our Democratic Secretary of State with support from the Illinois Democratic Party. There were thousands of us that registered to vote when we renewed our licenses but the records were lost and we were turned away from the polls.

Can I hold President Clinton accountable for this, more identifiable with, totalitarian abuse? Your attempts, albeit channeled through Klieman, are nearly indentical to those cast upon President Reagan. In every policy, in every state, in every decision, the White House is reponsible.

The Tampa Tribune article is good. I'm getting it blown up and posterized so I can place this quote on my wall.

said Elliot Mincberg, legal director of People for the American Way Foundation, a liberal-oriented advocacy group.

They almost got it right.

First let me say that I th ink Stoller's critique is a bit overboard. Out of all the conservative blogs I read, your's is definitely one of the more rational and open ones. So for that, you definitely deserve a lot of credit.

I think JC basically hit the nail on the head. I mean, at what point do you start screaming? What point do you stop giving the admin the benefit of the doubt? Their goodwill is long used up and then some. What woudl have to happen (what if any are the neccessary conditions?)

Actually, Jeb - that's a good observation. Guilty until proven innocent, after all. It might take a mountain of posts though...and, this type of thing has been debated in other blogs, again and again. But I'll give it a try - tonight is one of the few nights I have time...

1. WMD claims - let's see. I'm doing this WITHOUT fact sourcing at the moment, so forgive me if I mis-attribute.
a. Niger-Uranium claim in the State of the Union. Was false - and was removed in speech PREVIOUS to the SOTU - so shouldn't have been there.
b. Mobile Labs - pushed by Powell - ended up being weather balloon stations after all...
c. Rice "we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud". True of course, but HIGHLY inflammatory, suggestive, and misleading. A lie by another name.
d. A whole host of statements about WMD by George Bush. Uggabugga has the list
here but you will have to scroll down.
2. Same tax cut different situations. I basically think this one is a slam-dunk, because it is obvious, but here goes:
a. Bush originally promoted his top-heavy tax cut (benefits weighted towards the rich), and the rationale was because people "deserved" it, or some such.
b. Then the rationale was, because we were in a depression, the year the top heavy tax cut got passed.
c. Then the next year, for the new cut, the rationale was - well, shoot. I forget. Something inane, I'm sure. Maybe someone can help me out here...
d. This is what Krugman got RIGHT, at least a year before anyone else, that the numbers that Bush's "economics" team was proposing, didn't add up. You COULDN'T have the first tax cut, and keep the surplus, which is what Bush was running on. And, it was totally false.
3. "Close up any transparency in their administration"
a. Cheney energy task force. Need I say more?
b. Current forced legal memos, that Ashcraft is basically daring Congress to come and get (which he can do, because it is a Republican congress).
c. The "inertia" of the Plame investigation - which after all, really only involves a small group of people, really.
4. Label the opposition stupid, wrong, treasonous
a. The 75% "negative" campaign ads against Kerry. 75%??
b. Not so much Bush himself, but things like Ann Coulter's "Treason" and the various Karl Rove tactics.
5. Economic projections -
a. It is better to refer to the actual economists like Brad Delong here, but the first two estimated budgets, were works of fiction.
b. The "estimated" costs for Iraq. Wolfowitz saying - "a few billion". How far off can you get.
6. Lies about the prescription Medicare bill
a. Stronga-armed the vote, based on a $400 billion ceiling.
b. Has a projection of the actual cost that was FAR higher than this $400 billion.
c. Intimidated professional staffer of (10? 15?) years into NOT giving this estimate to Congress.
7. Torture
a. Abu-Ghraib.
b. Gonzales memo's outlining "new" interrogation policies
c. Current legal memos, outlined by Wall Street Journal, that basically argure how you can torture without it being called torture.
d. Ashcroft's refusal to come clean with memos.
8. Post-war period, and ignoring advice.
a. General Shinseki
b. Anthony Zinni
c. The State Department year-long effort at post-victory analysis, completely dumped.

This of course, is the first partial list. I could go on.

But the mendacity, is the thing. The "lies".

How's this for a first go?

Wow, some extremely convincing post. Actually, you made Stoller's case better than he did.

The self-delusions that some of you think is lucid analysis is amazing.

You know Bush didn't lie about the reasons for going into Iraq, but you say he did anyway; you learn nothing from history (at this time or later in the post WW II occupation of Germany, there were media voices saying it was all a failure) to pronounce the whole enterprise a failure; indeed, you almost seem to hope it will be a failure, perhaps because you believe that any harm done to the country will be easily recovered once your saintly party is returned to power.

But go ahead & resume your "patting yourself on the back" festival ...

In your origninal post:

Finally, while Blankely was, to repeat, clearly way out of bounds, the Republican decision to go on the offensive against Soros is perfectly legit.

I believe this is what Stoller is trying to get at. If you look at the criticism that the GOP and it's operatives have levelled at Soros, most of it is similarly beyond the pale of reason or decorum.

To make a slightly strained analogy, it's as if one basketball team's players are shanking the others, and you're saying, "those make-shift daggers are clearly out of bounds. On the other hand, this is a game of basketball."

By endorsing the end without divorcing it from the means (even as you register your mild distaste), it would seem you give a pass to the kind of politics which are literally tearing this country apart.

Hey, Jeb. You're here too? Wow! I notice, however, that you don't take Dan to task for "tendentious" -- surely an above-12-grade-reading-level word. And note, Glenn Reynolds in his MSNBC guest post refers to "hagiographies."

Too bad you didn't have Theodora Day as your high-school English teacher. Our summer reading included The New Yorker. We had to read it with a dictionary alongside, and were expected to come back to school in the fall with a list of new words we'd learned. I wasn't the only one of her students who got 800 on the English SAT.

BradDad,

If you have a chance, take a look at the uggabugga site - go down the site quickly, to go past the "snark", and go straight to the WMD section. There are 14 quotes, and that is only by George Bush, not to mention the backup from the rest of his administration.

But this is only one issue.

These things are important, and as much as you would like to label me, or others as victims of "self-delusion" to dismiss things - you need to take a hard look. For example, Brandon Mayfield - white guy, regular successful lawyer, who did happen to be Muslim. Absolute, total, and completely wrong incarceration. He was held without recourse, without a lawyer. Stuck. The Spanish authorities kept insisting - again and again - that the fingerprints did not match. But, the FBI wasn't listening. If the Spanish police had not gone PUBLIC with their conclusions, Brandon Mayfield may well still BE in prison, for the next untold number of years, without access, and then also be subject to "torture lght".

This is simply not the America that is an outgrowth of the Constitution. It's not. It's not right, for any administration. Brandon Mayfield could be you, or your cousin who married a Muslim, or your son. What then?

Damn Drezner! You knocked that one out of the park.

Okay, I've never posted a response to any of the online rhetoric I read, but tonight I'm making an exception because I just can't stand it anymore.

BradDad is right.

I was 16 when Ronald Wilson Reagan won his second term. I cried, convinced the world was going to end. History has certainly proved me wrong there.

What most of the commentors to this particular post fail to grasp is that there is a large contingent of voters out here that view this war on terror as THE ISSUE facing our country today.

Save the vitriol and conspiracy theories...my dad has you all beat.

The economy? Please....it's cyclical and no administration will bring it down. Term limits check that. (See also the Reagan legacy at any post on any news website today).

Education? State issue, ultimately. And despite being a registered Democrat in Massachusetts, Ted Kennedy is completely off base in asserting the administration has underfunded the No Child Left Behind Act. (Frankly, despite having voted for him two times, I'm concerned Ted is becoming unhinged - but I digress).

Gay Marriage? Not an Executive Branch issue. This will ultimately be decided by the courts, despite any action by the federal branch to enact an anti-gay marriage constitutional amendment. And rightly so. Bring it on. Like other civil rights issues, the courts will decide that people in this country are entitled to live their lives free from discrimination.

So, what's left? Oh....international security? Brings me back to my point. This is the single most important issue facing this country today. You may not believe that, but that is your right.

Yeah, the war totally sucks. I have a family member over there so it hits home. But I have this to say to the people who claim those of us that supported the war initially are somehow blindingly continuing to support it now. What the hell was expected? It's war. Did anyone think this would be over in six months? If so, you're naive. It's not a gym membership for crying out loud. True, the news is grim, but to kill the entire enterprise because it's too hard is absolutely ridiculous. Certainly, the persecutors of the prison abuse in Iraq should be punished. And certainly any unlawful other acts should be ferreted out. But there is a forest throught the trees, people.

Like BradDad says, history will tell. So stop getting so up in arms over this or that post only to ALWAYS have it come back to the big LIE. You're defeating yourselves. JC - what on earth does the anti-semitic charges levelled against Dan by Stoller have to do with your rant? Talk policy with me, please, and forego the conspiracy theories. I'm so sick of it.

Don't bother responding. This is my one and only post ever. It took too much energy that could have gone elsewhere. My grandkids can find this post and critique it all they like. Until then, I will periodically read vitriol from the likes of JC and holler at my cat.

The whole Anti-Semitism mud slinging thing makes me sick. So I am going to just ignore that.

But it does seem like it is time for thoughtful people to take a stand. Dan, Is George Bush for four more years good for America? That is the question of the election, and you have given hints of your answer, but seem reluctant to face your real thoughts on the matter.

And I am not familar with Soros' book, and do agrree that he is not neccesarily a serious thinker. But Afganistan could be easier than Iraq because of its history. Ethnic tensions could be less and expectations could be lower. I don't know if this is the case, but the comparison does not seem to be the slam dunk you indicate.

mmm...didn't really think I spewed vitriol. I thought I was spewing, I don't know - talking points? What can I say, it's a slow Tuesday night for me...waiting on The Daily show...

I hear your point, that the US will survive,

The original issue, is at what point does anyone, a Republican, a Democrat, say "enough's enough?", given a clear pattern of incompetence and mendacity? Clearly, everyone has different points for this. I'm saying, given some of what I've laid out above (which no one has bothered to factually deny here, by the way, but only snipe at - that's fine - sniping has its place.) if it is true, what is the point that you go from "shaking head in disapproval" or "making helpful implementation suggestions", to saying, "that's it - I'm off this bus"?

Okay, I lied. I'll respond.

I'll say "enough's enough" when the information has time to be treated with a touch of hindsight. You may think the war was predicated on lies. But many of us do not. Constant violation of UN orders (and Congressional Approval) was more than enough justification. The (despite now proved faulty-although I still am not convinced the jury is out on that issue) WMD intelligence was icing on the cake.

See, I'm bummed but not 'shaking my head in disapproval'. I am not naive enough to think that there wouldn't be bad news connected with this war. I'm not by any means saying the current tack over there shouldn't be revised. It's a monumental undertaking that I truly believe we cannot fail.

And I would try to factually deny your 'talking points' but much of it is based on the supposition that Bush/Cheney are inherently evil liars pushing their secret conspiracy re: Saddam and Halliburton on the entire world. I have no response to that. In fact, no one can respond to that. It's not sniping, it's just that my response would be "are you serious?".

Don't take it personally - both my boyfriend and father share your 'argument' and I can't respond to them either because they are both the sort to block out any 'conversation' that they can't agree with.

I am not sure why Prof. Drezner even felt the need to respond to Matt Stoller's alleged thesis. There's nothing to it except some cheap ad-hominem smears ("cowardly ilk" etc.), and the suggetion that Drezner is carrying water for anti-Semites is absurd on its face. The specious and gratuitous Hitler reference merely strips off whatever thin patina of credibility Stoller had remaining after the first words of his article were penned. Were I in Drezner's place, I would have linked the article with minimal commentary, allowing it to discredit itself.

PleaseStop,

For a moment, forget the WMD claims, and remember General Shinseki (sp?). An experienced Army man claiming hundreds of thousands of troops to take on Iraq. Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz said "wildly off the mark" and made the General retire.

War is hell, but we sure could have been better off if we listened to real military folks instead of deluded neo-con dreamers. Case #2? Oil revenues. Why aren't they paying the bills like the DoD folks said it would?

Case #3? Condi Rice. She is supposed to be heading up the Iraq operation. Where is she? Why isn't she the real voice on what's happening there?

Whether or not the case for war was good is now a moot point. We need to focus on how the occupation/handover is going. It sucks. For every school opened there is an abused prisoner.

Now as to the point raised by SomeCallMeTim et al., can't speak for anyone else, but I won't admit to any mistakes on Iraq because I have made none. The worst I'd have to admit to is believing the various claims made by U.S. intelligence, European intelligence, former UN inspectors, Iraqi defectors, and everyone except the Iraqi regime, that Iraq was in fact in possession of WMD, and more importantly, was intent on manufacturing more. The former assertion -- never disputed by any credible source until after the U.S. invasion -- is the only one that is in doubt. We clearly know that Iraq has manufactured and used chemical weapons, and were it not for the widely condemned "Israeli aggression" of 1981, would have had nuclear weapons. We also found out, in the wake of Iraq's disastrously premature invasion of Kuwait, that their nuclear program was much farther along than anyone had thought.

Against this plus the utter lack of cooperation with UN inspectors from Iraq all we had to weigh was the insistence of the Ba'ath government that they had no prohibited weapons. Well, sorry, gentlemen, but this isn't a situation where I give the benefit of the doubt to the other side. There was no mistake: given the information available at the time, invasion and forcible disarmament was the proper course. The lack of WMD -- if it truly is lacking -- at worst, shows a systemic failure on the part of the intelligence services of multiple nations and the UN. To me, that merely proves the necessity of removing doubt when situations like this occur.

This is to say nothing, of course, on the topic of the lesson taught to nations such as Lybia, which has (by pure coincidence, I'm sure!) decided that maybe making the U.S. all worried about its weapons programs isn't such a hot idea. And through that, of course, we found out the nefarious activities of the good Pakistani scientist Dr. Khan, selling nuclear know-how to scummy regimes for fun and profit. Weird, isn't it, how one little invasion uncovered more nuclear hanky-panky than years of UN and IAEA inspections?

Prior to the invasion of Iraq, most of us thought it had a WMD program, or at least had strong suspicions. Now, we can be sure that it doesn't. That alone makes it worth the cost of the invasion. I supported it then, I support it now, and I apologize for neither. It was, quite simply, the right and sensible thing to do. Only those fool enough to believe that "international frameworks" and meaningless treaties bring "world peace" would be bothered by it.

And good Lord, when it comes to admitting mistakes, surely the "anti-war" side should have been out in front first, with the apologies and the heaping helpings of crow? Wasn't it supposed to take months of bloody fighting to get to Baghdad? Weren't there going to be hundreds of thousands of refugees? American casualties by the thousands? The Arab Street inflamed like an irritated hemorrhoid? I mean, have we already forgotten the imbecilic MoveOn.org "Daisy" ads, threatening Iraqi use of nuclear weapons? Instead, the U.S. took Baghdad in what, three weeks, and less than a thousand Americans have died in over a year of war and occupation. I mean, the conflict is so small that every injury to an individual Coalition soldier is deemed newsworthy, and yet the same people that promised us rivers of blood and Afghanistan Vietnam-style "quagmire" are acting as if they foresaw the future with eagle-eyed precision. One can but stand in awe of arrogance so impressive, and so meritless.

E. Nough - Your post rocks. This is my first comment ever.

"What most of the commentors to this particular post fail to grasp is that there is a large contingent of voters out here that view this war on terror as THE ISSUE facing our country today."

Agreed, which is one reason I opposed the war on Iraq.

"Constant violation of UN orders (and Congressional Approval) was more than enough justification."

Maybe, but it was not a central argument presented to the American people. If, instead of talking about WMD, ties to AQ, and mushroom clouds over St. Louis, the administration had talked exclusively or even primarily about UN violations, I suspect there would have been much less support.

Mr.Drezner: Even if Soros is, as you say, inconsistent about what is required to suppress terrorism and wrong about Afghanistan being a better candidate for nation-building than Iraq, how does that make him a "loon"? Can a critic of the Bush adminstration be wrong without being called insane, even by a so-called moderate conservative? By the way, calling someone a "loon" doesn't quite fit with your reputation for civility (which I previously was inclined to think deserved).

So many thoughtful people for Bush.
So many thoughtful people against him.

The thoughtful people for him seem willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, to understand if not applaud his efforts, to realize that the US is at war against an enemy for whom suicide and murder are virtue, to be less inclined to panic when things don't appear to going as well as one would like, to be skeptical of the media's generally consistently tortured representation of events, to understand that history must be viewed forward and not backward.

The thoughtful people arrayed against him seem hypercritical of his every move and argument, to impugn his every motive, to deny or disregard the war in which the US is involved and, to ignore the nature of the enemy and the threat it presents, to view history by looking backward. They clearly do not give Bush or his supporters any benefit of the doubt.

So it seems to me.

The former seem to be more of this world, more realistic about what can be achieved and why it is being attempted.

The latter seem to me motivated by perfectionism and by conspiratorial thinking, and quick to condemn it where perfection is found wanting.

It has been said (some say by Voltaire) that the perfect (or the best) is the enemy of the good.

I imagine we'll find out in November which group of thoughtful people is larger.

BTW, in case these haven't yet been seen, here are two significant links (via Roger L. Simon's blog) for thoughtful people of both sides: An interviw. and an article by Amir Taheri.

I continue to be amazed by people who remain mired in September 10th thinking, people who believe we are not or do not need to be at war. To not recognize that Arabic fascism is the same threat to us that the fascists were in WW2 is astoundingly, willfully dumb.

I have come to believe that, thoughtful types or not, many on the left aren't merely in disagreement, they're on the other side.

If you have ever read any of Soros's "serious thinking on international politics" you would have to agree with Dan, he is not really a serious thinker. The books I have read by Soros on political theory were, if I remember correctly illreasoned, illogical and not terribly coherent.

I have a soft spot in my heart for Soros, he funds a myriad of organizations in Eastern and Central Europe and the former Soviet Union that have done great things. I have even worked for them there, and have had the opportunity to meet him a few times. His work there has been tremendous, and his financial writings have been pretty good, but I think he believes that because he is a good international investor and philanthropist he has some special insight into world politics, he might, but it does not come across in his writings.

He comes across as if he is just writing what he thinks, with no reflection. I would hazard a guess that he has not spent a lot of time immersed in the academic side of the field of international relations. He has his perspective, but that is only a small part of the picture. He could add a very valuable perspective to the discipline if he did not think that he knows everything.

To me this is why he is not really a serious thinker. It gets back to the argument about having expertise in one field leading you to believe that you have expertise in another field. In his case they are close to each other, but not quite the same, and that is where the breakdown comes.

Just my $.02

Bart

JC said "For example, Brandon Mayfield - white guy, regular successful lawyer, who did happen to be Muslim. Absolute, total, and completely wrong incarceration. He was held without recourse, without a lawyer. Stuck. The Spanish authorities kept insisting - again and again - that the fingerprints did not match. But, the FBI wasn't listening. If the Spanish police had not gone PUBLIC with their conclusions, Brandon Mayfield may well still BE in prison, for the next untold number of years, without access, and then also be subject to "torture lght"."
This is cosmic analysis to use as an example to support your objections to the Bush Administration. Brandon Mayfield was just as likely to have been detained, held, without counsel, at an undiclosed location, without due process as a result of law that preceded the swearing in of President Bush. Mayfield's detainment was the result of a technicality, a software glitch as the FBI spokesman reported. The initial Spanish objections were a result in the difference between the fingerpring points that the Spanish and Interpol require and the points the FBI requires. They're two different values that again preceded the Bush Administration.

It's interesting to watch Mr. Bush's attackers claim he lied about WMD, apparently oblivious to what's going on in the world currently, much less historically.

Just this morning comes news that UN weapons experts have found 20 engines used in banned Iraqi missiles in a scrap yard in Jordan, along with other equipment that could be used to make weapons of mass destruction. According tot he reports, the team was following up on that earlier discovery of another Al Samoud 2 missile engine in the Dutch port of Rotterdam.

I have a feeling you've not heard about that one, as either. Perhaps you've not heard, that they've found mustard gas and Sarin there, as well.

An interesting ommission in a group like this. Frankly, I epxected more.

To Ellen: I told you, I'm behaving myself. Now quit trolling!

Bithead: I'd be cautious in using the UNMOVIC report to make a case to support the White House policy on Iraqi WMD. The report says among other things that these engines appear to have arrived after the removal of Saddam Hussien along with tons of other scrap metal. I'm not sure who is checking this stuff, but the report says that the material is checked for weight, explosives and chem/bio concerns.

The report makes it look like the US is failing to conduct and sieze the most dangerous of all the Iraqi ordinance in violations of the sanctions.

Here are some comments, all by Republican senators (and I'm not even including McCain). Read them, digest them, think about them. These people, at least, are starting to get it. They aren't quite there yet, but at least they are starting to doubt.

The blind faith in the administration expressed by some of the commentators here is simply misguided.

"Military action is necessary to defeat serious and immediate threats to our national security. But the war on terrorism will not be won through attrition, particularly since military action will often breed more terrorists and more resentment of the United States."

Senator Richard Lugar, R-Indiana
(http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/05/23/lugar_questions_us_policies_on_iraq_terrorism/)

"I hope that in the end Saddam Hussein will not have taken away from us something that our Constitution, in large part, granted us, and that we have it taken away in the name of safety and security."

Senator Larry Craig, R-Idaho
(http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/09/politics/09TORT.html?ex=1087358400&en=2d5ec0b8e29ceb04&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE)

"What is our policy? What are we doing? What is the possibility of us winning? That's all still in question."

Senator Chuck Hagel, R-Nebraska
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0510/dailyUpdate.html)

Dan,
He invoked the nazis (i.e. Hitler). Invoke Godwin's Law and declare victory.

Even if Soros is, as you say, inconsistent about what is required to suppress terrorism and wrong about Afghanistan being a better candidate for nation-building than Iraq, how does that make him a "loon"? Can a critic of the Bush adminstration be wrong without being called insane, even by a so-called moderate conservative? By the way, calling someone a "loon" doesn't quite fit with your reputation for civility (which I previously was inclined to think deserved).

That's what set me off. Calling someone insane who is clearly not to score political points is central to this mindset.

Pogo: I continue to be amazed by people who remain mired in September 10th thinking

That would be people like Bush, Cheney and the rest of the neo-cons who were thinking on September 10th that we needed to invade Iraq, right?

Yes, it's quite amazing that they managed to remain mired in that kind of thinking even after the events of September 11th!

people who believe we are not or do not need to be at war.

But at war with WHOM, that is the question! Iraq is the wrong war. It is not helping, but hurting us in the war on terror.

It's one thing to disagree with this assessment, but it's utterly disingenious to keep accusing those of us who actually want to hunt down the terrorists that we are "weak on terror" because we are against the distraction caused by the Iraq war and its aftermath.

To not recognize that Arabic fascism is the same threat to us that the fascists were in WW2 is astoundingly, willfully dumb.

Actually, it's astoundingly and willfully dumb to lump Arab fascism (as in Baathism, which does indeed have some links to WWII fascism) and Islamist fundamentalist terrorism together. The Islamists were fighting the Baathists. They are quite happy that we got rid of them for them, because the fascists in Iraq and Syria were actually containing the terrorists somewhat. Not that this was really a desirable or stable state, but what our government has turned it into is an even less desirable and even less stable state.

Astoundingly and willfully dumb? You bet!

I have come to believe that, thoughtful types or not, many on the left aren't merely in disagreement, they're on the other side.

There we go again - "you are either with us or against us".

So when are you going to propose to start rounding up "liberals" - or anybody who opposes the war or even anybody who opposes any part of the administration's policy? I mean, if you truly believe that they are "on the other side", i.e. working with or for the terrorists, wouldn't that be a logical conclusion? What's stopping you? Or did I somehow misunderstand that "on the other side" bit?

Matt Stoller: Is there a diversion in glossology?

loon - a person with confused ideas; incapable of serious thought
Source: Princeton: WordNet

lunatic - madman, maniac -- (an insane person)
Source: http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn2.0?stage=1&word=lunatic">Priceton: WordNet

This thread is an example of precisely what frustrates me. About half the comments amount to “No mistakes were made.”

E. Nough’s comments to me are a perfect example of what I’m talking about. Let’s just go through the post briefly:

1. Everyone thought that Iraq had WMD, and was planning to make more.

My response before the war: who cares? The only weapons that should ever worry the U.S. are nukes (and for a variety of reasons, not even them that much). We’re just too big and too strong for anyone without nukes to hurt us in any significant way. So, unless someone is really suicidal – and this includes not just the individual terrorists, but also the provider of any help to the terrorists (we connected OBL and 9/11 pretty quick) - we are unlikely to be attacked by methods that would allow us to justify a truly bloody (say, nuclear?) response.

Even if Saddam was that suicidal, who cares? Chemical and biological weapons are really sh*tty for terrorists looking to kill Americans. You need everyone to either stay still in enclosed spaces or a sophistication in weaponizing biological weapons that no one seems to have. Look at it this way: the anthrax attacks killed, what, seven people? The sarin attack in Tokyo (in enclosed space, too) killed five. Let’s agree that, unless a weapon averages more deaths per terrorist attack than the number of bodies put up by two middle school kids with access to a grandfather’s gun cabinet, we aren’t going to create foreign policy based on our fears of that weapon.

And let's be honest - if Iraq were acquiring nukes, Israel would have handled it, b/c they have more reason to fear Arab nukes, more will to do something about it, and less to lose (it's not like they aren't pretty well hated in that neck of the woods already).

2. Libya and Pakistan, and everyone’s had a Come To Jesus moment regarding WMD.

Is this a joke? If I’m any other country in the world with interests that are not wholly in parallel with the U.S., I look at the invasion of Iraq, the negotiation with N. Korea, and the alliance with Pakistan, and I realize that the thing I need most in the world is a nuclear weapon. That seems to be the best guarantor against American invasion. If I’m such a country, I’m happy to tell the US whatever it wants to hear about my plans – but I’m looking to acquire a nuke. Either that, or I’ve realized I will never get a nuke, so I make a grand announcement about my epiphany and try to get paid for what I was going to do anyway (see Libya).

It’s also been an open secret for at least a decade that Pakistan was selling nuclear technology. Hell, I knew it, and I’m as uninformed as they come. Next you’ll be telling me that, b/c of this war, the former Sovs have acknowledged that they don’t have precise knowledge about where all their nuclear material is at the moment.

3. “Wasn’t it supposed to take months of bloody fighting to get to Baghdad?”

Don’t attribute the opinions of some against the war to everyone against the war. My opinion, prior to the war, was that you, me, and the lucky fan sitting in Seat 44E could have been the generals and we would have won in under a month. Because the great strength of our military is not its élan (which I’m sure it has plenty of), but its technology and the training of its personnel. I think the general populace’s over/under on taking Baghdad was less that two weeks.

The problem was always about what to do after Saddam fell. This Administration and its supporters thought that they’d create a democracy. I thought that the first Bush Administration was probably right – that Saddam was a bad guy, but he gave needed stability to Iraq, and was a relatively predictable guy. Iraq without Saddam is like a pile of money (oil reserves, historic importance) left in a crowded and poor street – guaranteed chaos as soon as the cops are gone. And we’ll be out of Iraq in under two years. Heck, the Kurds are already complaining that they are about being treated unfairly by the new government – that wasn’t foreseeable?

And yet, despite what has happened, the side that was so scared of a tinpot dictator that was no threat to us tells us we aren’t tough enough (instead of learning to live with uncertainty). And they tell us that we are naïve if we don’t believe Saddam would have attacked us (based on what is his past?). And in ten years, we’ll be having this conversation again because we haven’t settled what level of risk to the US is required before we preemptively (or, actually, whatever is just before “preemptive”) invade another country.

Sorry for the length. Believe it or not, I actually cut it. I promise to be pithy from now on.

SomeCallMeTime,

The only weapons that should ever worry the U.S. are nukes (and for a variety of reasons, not even them that much).

Ah. And I suppose jet airplanes piloted by a few crazies are of little concern, as well. What serious damage could they ever do?

That is as far as I got in your post. It took only several seconds to run across a ridiculous statement.

Good day.

"Bithead: I'd be cautious in using the UNMOVIC report to make a case to support the White House policy on Iraqi WMD. The report says among other things that these engines appear to have arrived after the removal of Saddam Hussien along with tons of other scrap metal. I'm not sure who is checking this stuff, but the report says that the material is checked for weight, explosives and chem/bio concerns. The report makes it look like the US is failing to conduct and sieze the most dangerous of all the Iraqi ordinance in violations of the sanctions."

That it looks like it arrived in Jordan during the occupation is not much of an indication on when it was last in usable form. Assuming this stuff was removed from service before we invaded, it could have been anywhere between then and now. Consider the report from the Times this morning;

Equipment and material that could have been used to produce banned weapons and long-range missiles have been emptied from Iraqi sites since the war started and shipped abroad, the head of the United Nations inspectors office told the Security Council on Wednesday.
Demetrius Perricos, deputy to the former chief weapons inspector Hans Blix and now the acting executive chairman of the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, told a closed session of the council that many of the items bear tags placed by United Nations inspectors as suspect dual-use materials having capabilities for creating harmless consumer products as well as unconventional weapons.

Mr. Perricos accompanied his briefing with a report showing satellite photos of a fully built-up missile site near Baghdad in May 2003 and the same site denuded in February 2004.

Get the picture?

Catalonia: And I suppose jet airplanes piloted by a few crazies are of little concern, as well.

What an utterly silly remark. Those airplanes were American airplanes, not some secret weapons secretly constructed by a secretive dictator somewhere in the Middle East.

That is as far as I got in your post. It took only several seconds to run across a ridiculous statement.

What an intellectual accomplishment! You willfully misunderstand something, attack it and then declare victory and leave.

This seems to be turning into a trend among the remaining Bush supporters. Shall we conclude that conservatives have run out of arguments and have decided to simply cling to their ideology?

GV You state in support of your ideology that nothing short of nukes are a threat to us... one gets demonstrated to you and THEY're the ones misunderstanding?

This new learning amazes me. Tell us again, how sheep's bladders may be used to prevent earthquakes.

qw,

Catalonia: And I suppose jet airplanes piloted by a few crazies are of little concern, as well.

What an utterly silly remark. Those airplanes were American airplanes, not some secret weapons secretly constructed by a secretive dictator somewhere in the Middle East.

My point, professor, is that if even non-WMD technologies can be used to devastating effect, then it is ridiculous to discount the dangers of WMD.

And of course another point is that you should guard against ridiculous statements, as non-partisans will cease to listen to your other arguments when you make them, or rather, only the choir will continue to listen.

What an intellectual accomplishment! You willfully misunderstand something, attack it and then declare victory and leave.

The pot calling the kettle black, except the kettle isn’t even black.

This seems to be turning into a trend among the remaining Bush supporters. Shall we conclude that conservatives have run out of arguments and have decided to simply cling to their ideology?

I voted for Nader, professor, and I will vote for Bush only because Kerry hasn’t demonstrated a viable, non-reactionary strategy for dealing with Islamofascism. (And I am not a conservative. A former Democratic, to be sure, but quite liberal on most issues. Perhaps we should engage in a discussion on the true catalyst of the anti-war dead-end worldview: rank, festering anti-conservatism, aka political bigotry from the New Reactionaries. [hat tip to Roger L. Simon for coining the term.])

Good day.

Bithead: It is mind-boggling how willing you are to show to everybody here what a poor grasp of the facts you have.

Even after Brennan Stout warned you that the story you picked up this morning might actually prove embarrassing to the Bush administration, you repeat it - proving again that it is indeed embarrassing to the Bush administration. The UN inspectors had catalogued dual use materials. We knew where they were and that they weren't doing us or anybody else any harm. Now they are gone. A fantastic step forward in our efforts of making the World a safer place! And the long-range missiles (on which there is too little information in the article to tell for sure whether they were being produced or already there) - those aren't WMDs, those are "banned weapons" only because their range exceeds a certain limit set by the UN.

Then you address, presumably me, as "GV", put words in my mouth that I never used ("nothing short of nukes are a threat to us" - SomeCallMeTim wrote something to that effect, not me) and pigheadedly repeat the willful misunderstanding that Catalonia committed and that I complained about.

So, yes, other weapons can indeed be a more serious threat than biological and chemical weapons. That's exactly why it is so utterly silly to jump up and down in euphoria just because some old sarin canisters have been found in Iraq. They are no real threat to us. Intelligent terrorists are a threat. We went after them in Afghanistan, but then we diverted funds and focus to a dictator who no longer posed any serious threat to us.

THAT's the issue here. Not whether we should fight the terrorists, but how. Bush went after the wrong target in Iraq. Bush is endangering all of us as a result.

Here is another quote from one of the articles about the weapons parts found in Jordan:

"The removal of these materials from Iraq raises concerns with regard to proliferation risks ... thereby also rendering the task of the disarmament of Iraq and its eventual confirmation, more difficult," Perricos said.

So we ended up helping potential terrorists get hold of WMD materials. If the war in Iraq was part of the war on terrorism and other people are talking about others being on the wrong side, it kind of makes you think whose side our administration is on, doesn't it?

Your attempt to sidestep is eherwith noted, and snickered at. So, was missle site mentioned, also 'dual use'?

amazing.

Catalonia:

I'm looking at your comments:

"And I suppose jet airplanes piloted by a few crazies are of little concern, as well. What serious damage could they ever do?," and
"My point, professor, is that if even non-WMD technologies can be used to devastating effect, then it is ridiculous to discount the dangers of WMD,"

and I'm wondering, are you suggesting we preemtively invade any country that (a) doesn't like us, and (b) refuses to stop making box-cutters? Because that could get really expensive.

As an alternative, maybe we could just show some sack and save preemptive invasions for those situations where, you know, the country was actually at serious risk. The unnatural death of 3000 people is a horrible, horrible, tragedy, and we should take all reasonable steps to prevent its reoccurance. This includes chasing down the criminals involved in this; it doesn't include chasing down the criminals not involved in any way in it. If we're going to attack people (more than) preemptively, let's save it for people who are real threats to the United States.

gw: The mistakes of the Bush Administration in the post-war period are no reason to discredit the obligations of the United Nations and its member nations to uphold the terms of the 1991 cease-fire and subsequent disarmament. I rest that your real objections precede UNSC R.1441 when saying "We knew where they were and that they weren't doing us or anybody else any harm". This despite the fact that even after the inspectors entered Iraq with the passing of R.1441 they could not even locate the weapons that they had previously catalogued in Iraq's possession. Have I misconstrued your point?

Second, you repeat another common myth.

"We went after them in Afghanistan, but then we diverted funds and focus to a dictator who no longer posed any serious threat to us."

I'll start by seeking to qualify the 'them'. Them being Al Qaida, them being the Taliban or Them being regional destabilizers? I assume you are likely referring to Al Qaida, but according to repeated testimony by the DoD officials and the Joint Chiefs of Staff there has been no "diversion" of funds or resources away from Afghanistan to Iraq. Perhaps you share the view of Rep. Mike Ryan(D-OH) when told General Myers that he wasn't accepting the JSC assertion that funds and resources were not diverted and instead maintaining his own personal belief that they were.

Catalonia: if even non-WMD technologies can be used to devastating effect, then it is ridiculous to discount the dangers of WMD.

But SomeCallMeTim discussed the justification for going to war in Iraq. Should we go to war against a country because it may have biological or chemical weapons programs? His answer was "no" - because they are not a serious enough threat to us. (Incidentally, lots of countries have such programs. Iraq stood out only in that it had used chemical weapons in the past. But that was in battlefield situations where they can do a lot more damage than in a terrorist attack.)

The potential use of airplanes as weapons is irrelevant in this context. Many countries have airplanes. Our own airplanes were used against us.

Kerry hasn’t demonstrated a viable, non-reactionary strategy for dealing with Islamofascism.

As I already pointed out before, "Islamofascism" is a misnomer - at least, if it's supposed to include the Qaeda terrorists who are our most dangerous enemies right now.

Perhaps we should engage in a discussion on the true catalyst of the anti-war dead-end worldview: rank, festering anti-conservatism, aka political bigotry from the New Reactionaries.

And we would do this so that you and your fellow non-partisan, not really conservative, ex-Nader voters can continue to ignore all arguments made in this thread?

It's really quite amazing how in the face of open hatred for anything remotely "liberal" that some people have exhibited here, a self-declared "not a conservative" manages to sneak in yet another whining comment about "festering anti-conservatism".

There is a link on the uggabugga site (to which JC referred) to a fittingly titled article:
Conservative Crybabies.

I think this is turning into an interesting social phenomenon worthy of further study: How the people who are in charge of our country are recklessly wrecking our country and at the same time complaining bitterly at every turn that the toothless "liberal" media is after them and that it's the media's fault if they aren't able to wreck things even more.

1. They lie about the reasons for a war, convincing the general public and reasons that turn out not to be true.

2. For wildly different economic situations, they, again and again, trot out the VERY SAME economic solution - that just happens to benefit the people they are associated with.

3. They close up any possible transparency in their administration - blocking at every turn, at every point, any openness in government.

4. They label the opposition, in every case, wrong, stupid, if not simply treasonous.

5. Their economic projections that allow them to push their tax program, are utterly based in deceit.

Sort of like having the Department of Commerce spike the economic numbers during the 2000 election to give your successor a better chance.

6. They lie about the effects of a new medical program - again, to push it through Congress to enactment.

Good thing it was defeated so soundly in 1993. Unless you were talking about the original Medicare and Medicaid programs.

7. On their watch, a movement towards torture (or torture-lite) almost becomes (or possibly becomes) part of the new legal structure - something that no one in their right mind though possible, years ago.

8. In the war gotten into because of lies, these people absolutely ignore the "post-war" period, making the already risky chance of success, much lower?

LOL!
Should we invade a country because they have bio-weapons?

Not for that alone, no.
But Iraq had far more going for it; They had them in direct violation of several UN mandates which were Iraq explicit, and they had shown the ability to use such weaponry against the rest of the world.

Now, do we, as the lone superpower, have a responsibilty for such matters, do you suppose?

I mean, at some point on this chain, a move away from the isolationist dogma is required.

Has anybody else noticed that whenever there is a long comment thread here or elsewhere, it's about the war, no matter what the original topic was?

Is it me or the company I keep?

And in this case, Bostonian, the thread has devolved into refighting the question of who was right in March, 2003. And, believe me, there are just a lot of people who just do not remember what was on the table then.

The problem is, the overnight folks originally tilted the thread in a very interesting direction -- what is the duty of the public intellectual?

I know I have one very big beef with the pro-war group -- they did not warn us of the consequences of trying to wage war with 120,000, rather than the Rand Corporation's 400,000. I really think our proprietor believed that we would some how come up with the troops, probably through the United Nations. It would have been nice to have that (or whatever) assumption he had, because then we could have ended with an honest discussion of whteher the liberation of Iraq was worth the probable cost to the United States in men and material. My guess is that,if we had had the talk,we would not have had the war or, we would have had the war with less complaints. In either case, we would have been better off.

Of course!
After all, what is the stated reson for Soros' objection to Bush?

Now his REAL objection may in fact be another matter, but I digress...

I stopped reading Kleiman's piece at the line, "Krugman is a very smart fellow."

Brennan Stout: Have I misconstrued your point?

You bet! I was referring to these particular dual-use materials that now turned up in Jordan and that had been "tagged" by the UN inspectors.

You, on the other hand, are presumably referring to chemical weapons that Iraq was known to have had from the 80s, but wasn't able to account for anymore. It is quite interesting that the fact that weapons were NOT found is now turned into an argument for the invasion. (Gee, maybe Iraq actually destroyed some of those old weapons? Maybe they weren't very good at keeping records? Maybe they felt humiliated about having to provide proof of everything they were doing in their own country? But, no, we'll just assume the worst and PRETEND that we know that these weapons still exist and even where they are!)

Here is a link to a page with lots of links to details about the weapons inspection program and its progress:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/weapindex.htm

Second, you repeat another common myth.

A specific instance of that "common myth" - that funds were diverted from Afghanistan to Iraq _illegally_ (which I didn't even say) - is based on an allegation contained in Woodward's book. Which, incidentally, is number one on the recommended reading list on the official Bush campaign web site! (So they are spreading myths there, aren't they? ;-) )

Nobody seems to dispute that $700 million were diverted from Afghanistan to Iraq - the administration just claims that it was authorized to do so and that it wasn't done illegally.

I suppose you could argue that if the Iraq war hadn't been started we still wouldn't have spent more effort on Afghanistan. That's possible, but it would just go to show that this administration is not serious about fighting the war on terror. It has other priorities.

qv,

But SomeCallMeTim discussed the justification for going to war in Iraq. Should we go to war against a country because it may have biological or chemical weapons programs?

Don’t be an idiot. The argument was never that we should go to war only because Iraq was pursuing WMD. It was the confluence of WMD, terror, and aggression that was the concern (among others). If this is your idea of sophistication you are utterly ill-equipped to understand how Iraq fits into the broader context of Middle Eastern political pathologies and how they relate to Islamofascism in general and international terrorism in particular.

As I already pointed out before, "Islamofascism" is a misnomer - at least, if it's supposed to include the Qaeda terrorists who are our most dangerous enemies right now.

You may have pointed it out, but that does not make it so. ‘Islamofascism’, while an imperfect term, is as good a moniker as any, particularly since it encompasses closely related movements like Baathist fascism and anti-Western pan-Arabism. Spare me the semantic quibbles, please.

And we would do this so that you and your fellow non-partisan, not really conservative, ex-Nader voters can continue to ignore all arguments made in this thread?

I cannot speak for others, but as for me, I have not ignored your arguments, per se. It is simply that I’ve heard them repeated ad nauseum over the last (nearly) 18 months. You cannot make a single point that I cannot answer, and answer quite well. I suspect that is the case for everybody here who is not anti-war. The mere fact that you would even consider your points insightful and unanswerable speaks to your intellectual obtuseness. The policy of regime change in Iraq has been around for a very long time, and pre-emption isn’t new. Stop pretending it’s a Bush Administration invention.

It's really quite amazing how in the face of open hatred for anything remotely "liberal" that some people have exhibited here, a self-declared "not a conservative" manages to sneak in yet another whining comment about "festering anti-conservatism".

Hatred for anything REMOTELY liberal? What the hell are you talking about? Methinks you’re projecting.

And it is quite interesting that one who complains of being labeled “for the terrorists” for merely opposing the war also labels others conservative for merely pointing out that most anti-war nincompoopery is the result of pedestrian anti-conservatism, or anti-Americanism (or both) in the case of foreigners. Once again, the pot calling the kettle black even thought the kettle isn’t black.

There is a link on the uggabugga site (to which JC referred) to a fittingly titled article:
Conservative Crybabies.

Please stop plugging this random site. I could list thousands with opposite views. Post your own arguments, please.

I think this is turning into an interesting social phenomenon worthy of further study: How the people who are in charge of our country are recklessly wrecking our country and at the same time complaining bitterly at every turn that the toothless "liberal" media is after them and that it's the media's fault if they aren't able to wreck things even more.

As I said previously, you lose your audience when you make ridiculous, hyperbolic statements like “recklessly wrecking our country”. I’m far, far too intelligent, well educated, and experienced to buy into such demagoguery. I have plenty of problems with many Bush Administration policies, but ‘recklessly wrecking our country’ is a moronic statement that only a partisan would make. Or somebody generally clueless (or perhaps young).

Not impressive in the slightest.

Bostonian,

Has anybody else noticed that whenever there is a long comment thread here or elsewhere, it's about the war, no matter what the original topic was?

That’s because for the most strident opposition, the Iraq War is a proxy war over other issues. More a defense of the faith, in my opinion, although there are exceptions. Thus my use of the term 'New Reactionaries'.

Thorley Winston: So the best you can do on JC's eight points is employ the conservative crybaby defense and (falsely) accuse the previous Democratic admin and this year's Democratic presidential candidates of being no better as far as 1 through 6 are concerned, then crack jokes about 7 (the torture issue) and repeat a Bush campaign lie against Kerry in 8?

Empire?

We go hat in hand to Turkey to join us. We plead with Belgium to join with the other NATO members to send troops. We beg France not to obstruct our efforts. And on and on and on. . ..

We have an exit strategy while we still fighting.

Geez, if we wanted oil we could take it from Canada or Mexico. That's what empires do.

If this is an empire, I want my money back.

SMG

Proposed Bumper Sticker
__________________________________________

Bush: He Got Us Into This Mess
He's More Likely To Get Us Out.
-------------- Bush/Cheney 2004
__________________________________________

Catalonia: It was the confluence of WMD, terror, and aggression that was the concern (among others).

Use of WMD in the past, aggression in the past, and very weak links to terrorists.

Spare me the semantic quibbles, please.

Just because you call something semantic quibbles doesn't make it so. You seem to refuse to understand that the Arab fascists and the Qaeda terrorists have very different goals. Lumping them all together leads to exactly the wrong Middle East policy that the administration has been engaging in.

You cannot make a single point that I cannot answer, and answer quite well.

Well, how about, for starters, answering a single point, preferably "quite well"?

It would also be interesting to hear what you liked about Nader in 2000 and why you will note vote for him again this time.

And it is quite interesting that one who complains of being labeled “for the terrorists” for merely opposing the war also labels others conservative for merely pointing out that most anti-war nincompoopery is the result of pedestrian anti-conservatism, or anti-Americanism (or both) in the case of foreigners.

Oh, I'm sorry, I really didn't realize that anybody here would take offense at being called a "conservative".

But, of course, when you listen to the campaign ads, the ones from Kerry are full of accusations against Bush of being a "conservative" (while Bush would never label Kerry a "liberal" because that's actually something positive?!).

I guess we _are_ perceiving the World in surprisingly different ways...

Once again, the pot calling the kettle black even thought the kettle isn’t black.

May I remind you what I was responding t